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what a mess.....well,..i know its no consolation, but at least we are building a database of issues that others will be able to use to diagnose future problems with their own caymans. i know its no fun being without your cayman, i really missed mine when it had the clutch problem, and it was only gone for a couple of days. good luck K-Man S. [img]/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
In this discussion the term 'missed shift' refers to a missed downshift, i.e., trying to go from 5th to 4th and mistakenly putting it in 2nd. In this case, an overrev will certainly occur and is absolutely not covered under warranty. The rev limiter is only there to protect the engine from an overacceleration (upshift side). On downshifts, the wheels are driving the engine instead of the engine driving the wheels, and there is nothing the rev limiter can do to prevent the damage.
Ken - sorry to hear about your problem. I'm thinking it would be a bad idea to hose-over the admin-guy for a site that has 200+ Cayman owners on it...That might lead to some bad press.
As a side note:
I don't know if anyone has ever done this (missed a gear on downshift), but I can assure you its one scary 2 seconds of your life...
I had a Z28 with the skip-shift and it created a very delicate / notchy gate and I missed 4th and hit 2nd instead on half a dozen occasions. My experience, and I've never done this in my Cayman (and hopefully never do) is that you will skid the back tires (ie: totally locked up) with the engine revs at 0. That may actually be harder (bearing torque, thrust loads, etc) on the engine than simply going over the redline, who knows. It never did any damage to my car - other than the utter adrenaline rush it gave me each time...
The determining factor is actually your tires on a missed downshift.
We've probably all missed a down shift 5th to 2nd instead of 4th. Mine unfortunately was the 'money' downshift. It did not completly over rev or even damage the engine. However, it was at HPT during a DE and I was doing about 120 cresting a hill with a little right hand jog over the hill. This was in a '993TT. It locked up the rear wheels, I lifted 'instinctively' as I was starting to turn, and guess what, around came the back end and I was straight into the retainer wall at about 100MPH. 6pt racing harness prevented any damage to me, but over $50K to the car. Only saving grace is State Farm covered it, as it was not a race. One reason for going from the 911 to the Cayman.
I don't know what is more of an issue here, that your brand new engne has a problem, or Porsche are even 'considering' denying a warranty claim. In the latest EVO mag they mentioned that an engine warning light came on on the track and the Cayman never really lit up after that. Perhaps our 'new' Cayman engine has some issues? I hope that being the first Cayman owners, we are not all guinea pigs...
I always thought that Porsche engines were fairly indestructable? This is one of the reasons why I spent $150k (in Australia) on my new Cayman. If every now and then when the opportunity presents iteself you use the real power of the engine (as Advertised by Porsche) at some point you are going to hit the revn limiter by mistake. If hitting the rev limiter can damage the engine and void warranty then whats it there for? And perhaps it should be at 6,200 instead of 7,200? But I suppose if that was the case then Porsche couldn't justify the high price and wouldn't sell as many cars. So is the Cayman a performance car or not? Are we allowed to hit the rev limiter or not?
Please keep us up to date with the outcome...
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I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about the warranty coverage at this point. The dealerships talk like this to cover their rears in case it turns out the car was really abused. As far as the engine durability I think that it's really premature to consider this a "latent defect" related to the design or manufacture of the engine. Actually if that turned out to be the case, like the RMS, we are more likely to get a break from Porsche. Some 97 Boxster engines were replaced out of warranty (it was a 2 year warranty until 99). Overrevving any engine can under the right (i.e. wrong) conditions can lead to bad things. I used to be a go-fast boater and as bullet proof as the 454 chevy block was, letting the prop get out of the water for even a couple of seconds can toast the engine. This is why the "big boy" racers have a wheel man and a throttle man. The guy on the throttles has to chop the power once the boat is airborne or the race is over. As far as manufacturers "wanting" or "expecting" us to race our cars I'd take that with a very big grain of salt. BMW never owned up to the rear pan/suspension failures on the E36 3 series, the rapid failures of Gen I PCCBs was not compensated by Porsche, etc. Porsche isn't going to bail on K-Man S for a few overrevs, but tracking a production car in warranty has its risks which we all need to remember.
Everyone else - yeah I went to the garage tonight to throw out some recyclables and noticed hey no Cayman, kinda sad, but I'm sure it will be back soon one way or another. I'd rather get the car sorted now than in 2 weeks from now while at the track.
From the discussion so far I can only assume that the Cayman engine is of the interference type ie. the top of the cylinder can meet the valves - is that the case for all Porsche engines ?
As others I wish Ken all the best and lets hope the problem is resolved to his full satisfaction !!!
Yes, the Cayman S' engine is of the interference type. Most european cars are as well as Nissans. Most American made cars are of the non-interference type.
Usually anything with an overhead cam is of the interference type as well.
3) The service guys says he doesn't know if the warranty will cover any engine problems since there are revolutions beyond the rev limiter. He is waiting to hear back from Porsche.
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that is BS. i track my car a lot, i mean A LOT. i bounced off rev limiter for fun, i do that very very often. i have never missed a downshift. dealer can read if it's a type 1 or type 2 over rev. if you over rev on an up shift there will be no damage b/c the rev limiter will catch it. if you zing the motor on a down shift, they it's your own fault and you pay for it. but any other type of over rev, the bill is on porsche.
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Overrevving any engine can under the right (i.e. wrong) conditions can lead to bad things
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only on down shifts. up shifts are protected by rev limiter. if your blow the motor on upshift then the rev limiter is malfunctioning and that should be warranted.
it's very hard to abuse a car. i put over 6k track miles on my cars every year. i dont consider that abuse at all. in fact the car loves it. all fluids are refreshed bi weekly.
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