Hello,

New Porsche driver here... I have a 2008 Cayman which I leased; I am wondering if anyone else who leases also participates in AX and/or DE? Also, with regards to insurance- how does this work? Is a separate insurance policy needed when driving at one of these events? Thanks!

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"heap big woman, you made a bad boy out of me..."

many of us self-ins. you shouldn't track a car you cannot walk away from. S**t happens on track.

With regard to insurance. Auto insurance policies are exclusionary, i.e. you are covered unless the policy specifically excludes coverage. Some policies have very specific exclusions that would exclude coverage at HPDE events. Some policies are silent.
My State Farm policy here in Illinois is silent regarding such activity. I am aware of situations where State Farm has covered damage arising from HPDE events.
I also am aware that in other states, State Farm policies have specific exclusions. I am sure State Farm would like to have such language in all of its policies but changes have to be approved by state regulators and apparently this is a slow process. It might also be that long time customers have a different policy than new customers. I can only suggst that you look at your policy and read it very,very carefully.
We are seeing a lot more on-track incidents at HPDE events and the cars involved are generally the expensive ones, GT1, GT2, GT3 and Turbos. I think it is only a matter of time before all insurance companies get their policies updated to exclude coverage.

I agree with mooty here, self insurance is the only way to go it seems. There are some outfits that offer track only insurance, but they come with other issues such as will they actually pay out? There was an extensive thread about this on Rennlist a month or so ago.

As far as normal insurance goes, even if they agree to cover your incident, I'm sure this will be a serious black mark against you. When renewal time comes, don't be surprised if they drop you or raise your rates sky high.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is what I've gleaned from reading extensively on this.

I've been to a track about five times in other cars and went in fully comfortable with the fact that I can throw away the car if needed. Now that I've just taken delivery of a Cayman S, I'm not sure I can say the same thing. I've witness several skids, spinouts and guardrail tags. Even at beginner speeds, things happen very quicky at a track.

I'll probably stick with AutoX the first year. Unless you drive into a parking lot light pole, the only danger to the car is scuffed tires and a cone mark on the bumper!

-Pete

we lease our Cayman, and i massacred quite a few cones at my first AX - as far as i can see the only wear and tear on the car was on tyres and brakes. my husband and i both ran the car and did not purchase supplemental insurance, but then again AX is relatively safe.


i am leery, however, of doing the same at a DE. we fully intend to call our Insurance Agency (State Farm CA) to ask about non-timed non-race Driver Education events to find out what is covered. unfortunately this is not a guarantee of payment - and as PistolP stated, there may be issues whether you purchase supplemental insurance or not.

we are also looking into buying out our lease - guess it does not really matter where the $$ is going if you total a car at a DE (which is rare, btw) but i will feel more comfortable owning for a DE than leasing.




(see related threads at the bottom of the page)

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Don't call State Farm! My brother-in-law is a State Farm agent and a few years ago he told me that he could find no exclusion in my policy for such activity but he would call the home office to see what what the offical word was about DE activity. The home office people immediately wanted to know which customer was asking the question. They wanted my name! He was able to finesse the situation but they hounded him about it for several days before they gave up.
If you want to know if you are covered, it is all in the insurance policy. The policy is a contract, it covers every aspect of your coverage. Just read it. If you have an accident at a DE event and they refuse to pay, they have to show you where in the contact such activity is excluded. They just can't stiff you if there is nothing in the contract that excludes coverage.
Of course, they will probably drop you and your rates will go up, so whatever claim you make has to be of such size so that you come out whole, i.e I would not put in a claim for a fender bender but if I had a complete wipeout it would be a different story.
Several years ago I had an incident in my 911 at Road America, turn 12. The damage was $5K. I decided to eat the expense myself rather than test my relationship with State Farm.

'nuff said.

i wish there were some way to have a definitive answer regarding insurance...

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There is a definitive answer. It is the exclusions.

And calling to ask will just get you to some claims' person that freaks out when you say race track.

I know that 21st Century exclusions in CA are ok, as long as you don't run in the timed portion of DE/Time trials - I made them put a note in my file. Since, I have changed to Farmers - actually Mid-Century Insurance & saved $500.

But, they don't cover anything that leads up to a timed event, which means a DE with Time Trials is not covered - whether or not I participate. Further, they won't cover medical from any track incident.

But, I wasn't going to go to the track any more this year. Next year I will shop around. The first think to do is to contact the company and get a copy of their exclusions. Then, carefully read them.

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The search tool is your friend. It is very
likely that your question has already been
answered countless times.Very,very likely.
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Cayman S - a portable amusement park

- 2006 Cayman S
- 2003 Dakota SXT
- 1963 Studebaker Avanti, R2, 4-Speed
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LL

I agree with this 100%

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As for Autocross, I really don't worry about it at all. I also think it's a great place to start if you are determined to get on the track. Learning car control at lower speeds in a pretty safe enviroment is an excellent prelude to DEs.

Excellent information, thanks for all of the replies!

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"heap big woman, you made a bad boy out of me..."

I have got to go back and review the thread on what we all do for a living

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Mike

If you are checking your policy exclusions, remember that you can't just read the last full copy you received. State Farm (and I imagine others) include policy amendment notices in almost every 6 month billing I receive from them. So you need to know what is in ALL amendments that you may have been sent since the last full policy statement.

My State Farm policy specifically excludes any event where timing devices are in use. Also excluded is any event held at a facility designed or built for the purpose of racing - whether or not racing it taking place.

In other words - I'm self-insured, plain and simple, for all the autocrosses I run and HPDE events I instruct at with both BMW CCA and PCA.

I do know of one very recent case in which a 30 year policy holder was granted coverage of a rolled car at a HPDE. There is room for judgement, but you had better be a *very* good customer with no past claims and no moving violations. I like my agent and have been with him for 20+ years, but I'm certainly not going to count on him and State Farm being "nice guys" if I ever have a serious problem.