OK. I have now had two track days with my Cayman S. I absolutely loved them and have the bug.

So my question for experienced tracksters (who may have owned new Porsches and tracked them in the past) is:

If I do this once a month what is likely to happen to my car over the next 5-10 years? Is it likely to cause any damage? (assuming that I don't crash!)

I can handle more frequent servicing, going through tyres, pads and rotors. But am I being a little indulgent with my $160k (Aus) toy... Or was it REALLY designed to do this?

I want to really look after my car. But I also want to REALLY drive my car.

Our Warranty book in Australia states that 'damage resulting from Motorsport' is not covered. Does anyone know what the definition of this really is?

I'd like to get more into this and do Porsche club sprints etc. But not if my car really isn't designed for this kind of use regularly.

Are there any long time Porsche Club members out there? What have your experiences been with these kinds of issues?

I am going to ask my dealer what they think, hower I am not expecting a very straight answer from them.

Once a month should be no problem for the car, but there will be much higher wear and tear on things like clutch which is rather expensive to replace (about $5k from memory of my friends Boxster S job). Porsche Club guys will have a lot more experience on this front. I will also be joining shortly. Btw, I didn't know that the warranty book actually states that. In fact last year, my shifter linkage came undone during one of the O'Neil days, and Porsche sent out a flat bed tow truck and fixed it overnight for free. Donavan at Porsche Centre is great. See him if you ever have any issues.


Now that you are doing all these track days, are you going to get a different set of rims with semi-slicks? I am looking for a set myself.

Edited by - WAY on 06/04/2006 05:35:05 AM

The warranty info is a little ambiguous. In one paragraph it says that you wont be covered it you treat the car in a manner that it wasn't intended and then elsewhere it says damage resulting from motorsport wont be covered. I am sure the car was designed to drive at high revs and brake hard for 20 minutes at a time, as per a track day.

Porsche have drive days of their own, and encourage motorsport through drive days and support of Porsche clubs etc. Porshe offer options like Chrono - so you would think that the car was designed for track use?

What about engine wear and problems? I assume all the older Porsches you se at the track havn't had their engines rebuilt and they are still ticking along nicely?

I like the part in the manual that tells you to make sure you change gear before the tachometer needle enters the red area. Obviously the engine is designed to drive right to the redline regularly, as this is what the redline is for?

I damaged my old 996's transmission on a bad downshift at a PCA DE and it was replaced under warranty. The guy who sold me the car was at the event. There are cars at the track which have been driven for years and years. Look at all the 944's out there! They may have required a few clutches and a rebuild along the way, but the cars keep on going. But no doubt about it, this is not a cheap hobby.


The main cost (during warranty anyway) will be tire wear. I would get a second set of wheels and some track tires, like Hoosier RS06or Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. Sport Cups last a year or 2 at one track event a month. Also, check your insurance policy. State Farm is OK with 'Driver's Education' events where it is noncompetitive. If in question, you can get track insurance from American Collectors up to $100k (premium 1.5% of value with $20k deductible). They won't cover full out racing though.

Guys, thanks for the info. Thats the sort of stuff I was wanting to hear...

dt - To answer your main question - yes, the cars are actually designed to do this. I've been to two Porsche Driving Experience events (one at Sebring, and the master's course at Barber Motorsports park in Alabama) and the cars run all day at speed and every night the mechanics check the tires, oil, put gas in them (these were 996s) and put them back on pit road for the next day. No other productiuon car is designed to do this. I've had my 996 turbo on six different tracks around the US, driving at .7-.9, depending on how well I know the track, and never had anything go wrong - as well as running in 10-15 autocrosses a year, and I just wore out the tires and brake pads a lot faster. But, putting it on the track once a month, you will experience wear in all the areas that you mentioned, and you could probably add wheel bearings and shocks to that list eventually, too.

As far as the warranty issues, it's something that PCA here in the states (I've been a member for 19 years) has been discussing with Porsche of North America for a while now... our books say (among the other things not covered:

'Abuse, accident, acts of God, competition, racing or track use or other events. Note: Components and/or parts that fail during racing or driving events (including Porsche sponsored events) will not be covered by the manufacturer new car limited warranty.'

But at the same time, Porsche shows their cars being driven on the track, they even sponsor the Porsche Driving Experience where you actually drive their cars on a track - throughout the owners manual they refer to the 'race-bred haritage' of their cars... so there's a bit of a dichotomy in most people's minds between the marketing and the reality of what's covered in the new car warranty.

So, you do the track events at your own risk, as far as the warranty is concerned, and if something fails it will be up to Porsche and the individual dealer as to whether or not they'll cover it... if you blow up the motor then, should you tell them you did it at the track? Well, I'll leave that up to you - unless they have someone at the event, they'll have no idea unless you tell them, obviously, or you've over rev'ed the motor badly, which they can read out from the black box...

What I'm saying is that track use with a new car, at least here in the states is at your own risk, and repairing a failure is at Porsche's discretion.

That said, go out and enjoy your car - I have, just keep your fingers crossed now and again...

brad

__________________
21-year PCA Member
PCA DE Instructor

Here comes a long one&hellip;<o></o>[/quote]


I am sure that you heard it before: buying a used car from a racer is safer that a dealer. If you track your that often, 10-12 times a year, the wear on your car will be noticeable. You will have to maintain every part of your car to the letter and usually the stuff you will need to maintain in not in the owner's manual, other trackers will have to tell you and some of it only you'll know by experience.<o></o>[/quote]


General engine maintenance is the least of my concerns, I really trust Porsche engines more than anyone else's; hence simple fluid maintenance is enough. Drivetrain is equally good, but normal wear items like the clutch must be budgeted for within the next 3-4 years.<o></o>[/quote]


However, what is unknown to me and most others I suspect, are stuff related to the chassis. The chassis gets stressed more than any other component IMHO. Suspension, bushings, subframes, chassis pick up points, etc. General metal fatigue. All normal, but has to be watched and cared for.<o></o>[/quote]


For example, it was not until the 4th year of production that the E46 M3 had the 'historical' subframe failure issues if track frequently or for over a period of time; even tough, it was well known and documented problem with E36 chassis as well. Imagine this is an ///M car, which as track ready as the Cayman IMO.<o></o>[/quote]


Porsche is known for its realibility; however, it would be a mistake to think it is 'track ready' in that it will withstand continuous track usage without giving you any grief, I don't think such a car exists any way, even 'RS' versions.<o></o>[/quote]


In short, I think there a lot that we do not about long-term track usage of this car and many us will find out <v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" oreferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><vath o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></vath><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" style="WIDTH: 14.25pt; HEIGHT: 14.25pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.caymanclub.net/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/wink_smile.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\Parents\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip _image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape> However, you will be shocked at your expenses in about a year, if you think this new hobby will stay just a 'once a month' fun thingy. I do not know what you have invested into thus far, but may be we can have a little fun with 'Things to come':<o></o>[/quote]
<ul>
<ul style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">R-compound tires to make you feel with this simple addition you can catch the cup cars and have the 911TT eat your dust.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">After the first set of R-comps going to waste, you will be told that such r-comp tires need negative camber to work properly; you will purchase your first set of camber plates for the fronts. You will be amazing how much difference the increased front grip makes the car unbeatable; but...<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">You will start asking questions like 'how much camber should I put on?' [/quote]You will be suggested to obtain a pyrometer and scientifically measure the best camber for your driving, and you will do so of course.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Then you will notice that there is an imbalance between front and rear grip and soon you will be looking at purchasing rear camber plates or bolts. [/quote]At this time, you will put off the suggestions that you should really purchase some nice coilovers which also come with pillowball upper mounts and camber plates; you’ll just purchase rear camber bolts, and of course continue your studies in pyrometer measurements and cause/effect tables.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">As you progress in your driving, you will certainly feel the absolute need for a 4- or 5-point harness, and start research offerings in the market place. [/quote]This will of course require you to have harness bar, but experience trackers will suggest that you should not use a full harness without roll cage in the car for safety reasons. [/quote]Since this is 100% safety related, the expenses will be justified and soon you will have your very own custom roll cage in the car. [/quote]With a full harness, roll cage (and its added chassis stiffness), you will feel like you are on a different playing field. [/quote]Of course, this will also require you change the stock seats to the beautiful GT3 seats to have the harness go through them properly. [/quote]This is also the time that you feel confident giving advice to strangers on the internet [img]/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/tounge_smile.gif[/img][/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Couple more events later, you will notice that you have passed the car’s limits and the car is actually holding you back. [/quote]The main culprit is either the lack of power in engine, soft suspensions or both. [/quote]Your first choice of course will be to upgrade to GT3 adjustable anti-roll bars. [/quote]They will certainly improve cornering in a noticeable way and put a smile on your face for the next couple track days and you will have something to play with from track to track with various front and rear bar adjustments and show people the level of sophistication you have reached in your hobby.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">However, after those couple track events, you will need more to keep up with fully prepared cars and guys. [/quote]Given the choice, you will feel you need to first upgrade the suspension before upgrading the engine. [/quote]So, you’ll start researching various known coilover manufacturers, and probably end up with cost-effective single-adjustable Bilsteins or Cross on your car with moderate spring rates to keep the car streetable; you will even have your car corner balanced like the professionals. [/quote]The first time out with the new coilovers will be amazing and you’ll think it was silly to hold of on the suspension all this time and you have found the answer to being ultimately fast. [/quote]However, your pyrometer readings will not improve, but you won’t care, you’ll have all the time to find the right settings on the shocks, camber, etc for the couple of months. [/quote]Several track days later, you will claim that you have found the absolutely the right combination of front and rear anti-roll stiffness, camber settings, shock compression settings; not to mention the never ending tire pressure adjustments. [/quote]You will be turning some amazing time around the tracks that you have been too and you will proud of your progress.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">After getting sick and tired of constantly paying local shops for corner balancing for every little change in the suspension, and you will purchase your very own corner balancing weight scales to do it yourself at home for <u>free</u>!<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Next comes simple engine upgrades: headers, exhaust, ECU tuning, ect. [/quote]They will add another dimension to your enjoyment and your lap time will go down steadily. [/quote]Of course by this time you will have most of tools you need in your garage to change brake pads and fluids, jack, jack stands, oil pans, filters, various engine and transmission fluids and you say the heck with the dealer, I can do my own maintenance and save couple hundred dollars.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">With the added power, one thing become apparent: your single-adjustable coilovers will no longer give you what you need to control the fast machine, especially since they have been leaking some oil steadily. [/quote]You will change to double- or may be even triple-adjustables, with more “appropriate spring rates”. [/quote]Now before each track day, you will inspect the suspension carefully and try to adjust all 3 different shock settings (with 16 different settings each!) for each and every corner of the car. [/quote]Not to be outdone, you will try to find the sweat spot with the camber adjustments, anti-roll bars and tire pressures again. [/quote]Ooohhh, the fun.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Few months later, you will start thinking that the car has become more difficult to drive on the street daily, but that it is so worth it for the wonderful hobby that you have that most people do not even tend to grasp. [/quote]But few months after that, you will have had enough of it. [/quote]You will buy a truck and a trailer. [/quote]The truck will be your 4-season daily driver and pull your Cayman to the track with all the tools and extra wheels/tires that you need when you get there. [/quote]It will just be open trailer of course, but will be enough for the foreseeable future.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">By this time, your new racer friends will convince you that you are good enough to participate in club racing and discover a new level of automobile enthusiasm that very few have the chance experience. [/quote]You will give it a serious a thought and (I do not know how it is in <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Australia</st1lace></st1:country-region>) you will even entertain the idea of opening a small performance business and to able to deduct your hobby expenses from your taxes.<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">You will enter club racing and have a ball doing this exclusive sport and feel like a local hero even. [/quote]Few more tools, gauges, new pyrometers, data loggers, weight saving batteries, on and on&hellip;<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">One day, you have the courage to sit down really understand where all that money is going and you will build a spreadsheet. [/quote]Ms. Spreadsheet will tell you in a very concise summary and clarity that your hobby-turned-racing is costing you about $50 USD for every mile you spend on the track. [/quote]<o></o>[/quote]
<li class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 6pt 0in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">At that time, someone will post a message on the Internet about how excited that they have discovered this amazing new hobby called track days and ask how much tear and wear they should expect to incur if they were to attend them on a regular basis. [/quote]You will start typing a short message&hellip; “don’t do it!”<o></o>[/quote][/list] [/quote]<o></o>[/quote][/list] <p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto">Cheers,<o></o>[/quote]
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o></o>

__________________
FT

And, if you are wondering about real world examples, please take a look at the following conversation: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...925post3119925


[img]/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/MWPX/teeth_smile.gif[/img]

__________________
FT

Thanks Guys. Great information. Unfortunately though, I think I need to learn the hard way... ;-)

I am going to keep doing the odd instructed drive day to become a better driver, and perhaps stay away from trying to be too competitive for the time being....

depends on how often you track the car. if you do say 5-6 times a year, your car won't see much extra wear. i do 30+ a year, so my car does get worn more.


i would get oil changed much more often though. you can do oil cahnge yourself. it's very easy on cayman.


pads, rotors, tires, will wear at least 10x faster when you are on track. but those are wear items, wont tear up your car.





FT, i like your long response ;-)


i am on a tangent to your projection. after several GT3's with moton cs coil overs i am moving to lower hp cars and oem suspension. i am trying to figure out how stock i can be and still keep up