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I assume you will agree with me that the Cayman's cornering abilities are limited by the grip of its tires, the design of its suspension, etc. right?
So if you take a stock Cayman and drive it on the street and come to a cloverleaf entrance (or exit) to/from a highway and you get on the gas and push the car to near the limit of the grip of its tires and hold this through most of the cloverleaf and then come out of the cloverleaf only to find that your Cayman belches smoke as it ingests oil from the cornering, would you still consider that the driver's fault? Now take the same car, same driver, stock tires, stock Cayman and put them on a track and have the same thing happen, again whose fault is it?
If we could just stay on the actual topic that I raised. I did not say it was the driver's fault. I just don't believe that you cannot hold a manufacturer responsible for something like this. It is all relative to the road conditions, tyres, temperature, oil type and quality etc. etc. Obviously they build these things to get to a "higher than your standard road car" standard of handling and performance, but also to a budget. Hypothetically, if it came with a full dry sump, oil tank, additional oil pumps and scavenge pumps but cost YOU another 10k, would you have been more happy? Given that most people don't drive on the limits that you are describing, I think they built the car to the requirement list perfectly. But that's my opinion.
I'm reading all this nonsense about it being a "critical problem" but I still can't get past the fact that it is a street car that goes well on a track, but obviously has some limitations.
and this limitation should be defined by the tire grip and suspension setting, the fact that oil ingestion happens before the actual limit is achieved means its an engineering short fall.
being a street car makes no difference, porsche didn't manage to hit the optimum point of design.
and this limitation should be defined by the tire grip and suspension setting, the fact that oil ingestion happens before the actual limit is achieved means its an engineering short fall.
being a street car makes no difference, porsche didn't manage to hit the optimum point of design.
C'mon, you're not serious are you? Engineering short fall? Do you want the Porsche engineers to lessen the handling capabilities just so that a few drops of oil won't be burnt by the engine when it's pushed hard?
I suppose some people are never happy. Or else they're happier when they're complaining.
This car is continually voted as one of the best handling cars in it's price range and market bracket. Lets all just enjoy it without having to complain about the issues that can arise when thrashing it around a track with non-recommended tyres and suspension settings that make it handle above it's engineered limitations. In short, don't hold the builder responsible (in a negative context) for the car being so damn good.
if it came with a full dry sump, oil tank, additional oil pumps and scavenge pumps but cost YOU another 10k, would you have been more happy? Given that most people don't drive on the limits that you are describing, I think they built the car to the requirement list perfectly.
its very easy for car makers to hide behind the cost issue, but as an engineer i believe perfection is achieving the absolute best result with what you have available. basically efficiency.
a problem like this bottle necks the cars performance, and should never be the weakest link in the car.
and if the solution is extremely expensive, then its an over-engineered solution, and not efficient due to the short fall of the design in the boxer engine
Last edited by looper_1234; 06-02-2008 at 08:17 AM.
C'mon, you're not serious are you? Engineering short fall? Do you want the Porsche engineers to lessen the handling capabilities just so that a few drops of oil won't be burnt by the engine when it's pushed hard?
I suppose some people are never happy. Or else they're happier when they're complaining.
intensionally dumbing down the handling capabilities would be silly since the investment has already being made by Porsche to make the cayman handle as good as it does now.
but this very handling capabilities is now bottle necked due to the oil problem, if Porsche believes that this is ok then not only are they letting down ppl who buy cayman, they also undo the hard work of the engineers who've worked on the chassis and suspension.
of course Porsche will fix this, they are engineers and they didn't get to where they are now being happy with what they've achieved
I have read this post in an effort to understand the full picture. I gotta admit, it's a little hazy (pun intended)
Pardon my ignorance, but I'm still struggling to understand your motivation with the whole petition to Porsche thing......
C'mon, you're not serious are you? Engineering short fall? Do you want the Porsche engineers to lessen the handling capabilities just so that a few drops of oil won't be burnt by the engine when it's pushed hard?
....Lets all just enjoy it without having to complain about the issues that can arise when thrashing it around a track with non-recommended tyres and suspension settings that make it handle above it's engineered limitations.....
I suppose some people are never happy. Or else they're happier when they're complaining.
Thanks for dropping by our site and weighing in on this issue. But, you have no reason to call us all a bunch of complainers. Clearly you have no you have no experience with the problem.
Your statement of "a few drops of oil" shows your ignorance. We are talking about 1 quart of oil being ingested in 2 hours of driving. The car being removed from the track by PCA officals. The engine bogging down from the oil in the combustion chamber. The increase of engine compression pressures and the long term effects, causing engine component failures (rings, valves, pistons). The serious possibility of the engine seizing from hydro-lock. We are also talking about something that Porsche knew about when they designed a MS AOS for the 996 engine.
Also, while there are those that throw their car around the track. There are many of us who drive smoothly on the track that are not "trashing" our cars. There are also many people that are having this problem on street tires and with factory suspension.
There are many of us that instead of complaining to Porsche, have successfully implemented a solution. Many of us are also willing to help others install a solution OR if they desire, help them push this problem higher on the priority list at Porsche Engineering.
Since you admit to not understanding this issue (and you are correct) let those that that do understand it work on the issue. Name calling, sarcasm and attempts to trivialize this critical problem are not useful.
If you intend to stick around on this site and contribute to other discussions, then welcome. But IMO you could have started off a bit better.
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You are correct, of course. It does not say R compound tires. My mistake.
What do you think the "R" means (race). It doesn't say cross ply either but you should use these either. Use some common sense, in YOUR owners manual it says what tyres you can use. I’m sure most of you are exceeding the limitation with non-factory approved tyres and this is causing the oil to gather in the head because of the high lateral corner speeds.
What do you think the "R" means (race). It doesn't say cross ply either but you should use these either. Use some common sense, in YOUR owners manual it says what tyres you can use. I’m sure most of you are exceeding the limitation with non-factory approved tyres and this is causing the oil to gather in the head because of the high lateral corner speeds.
the same problem seem to occur on stock set up to under normal road conditions too.
the same problem seem to occur on stock set up to under normal road conditions too.
Key word "seems", meaning, you're not sure. There seems to be a lot of could have, should have, might have, could be, should be, might be. I don't think Porsche would put a product on the road that blows smoke each time you drive it on the road. If it does, then something is wrong that can be fixed because mine doesn't blow smoke.
Key word "seems", meaning, you're not sure. There seems to be a lot of could have, should have, might have, could be, should be, might be. I don't think Porsche would put a product on the road that blows smoke each time you drive it on the road. If it does, then something is wrong that can be fixed because mine doesn't blow smoke.
Looper is correct, read my posts above, it CAN and DOES happen on the street under the right conditions, basically any time your cornering exceeds the ability of the AOS to keep oil from getting into the intake.
I might also add that 997S's don't do this on the street or track, oh and they also happen to have a different AOS, and of course there is the Porsche Motorsports unit available as well. It seems that Porsche already has parts available that would prevent this from happening but chose not to use them in assembling the car.
Key word "seems", meaning, you're not sure. There seems to be a lot of could have, should have, might have, could be, should be, might be. I don't think Porsche would put a product on the road that blows smoke each time you drive it on the road. If it does, then something is wrong that can be fixed because mine doesn't blow smoke.
sigh... i was merely trying to sound polite by choosing words that wouldn't sound like an out right contradiction to what you've said.
anyway the track is just a place, what ever happens there could happen anywhere else given the same conditions, and the risk of engine damage due to hydro-lock is very real.
one might argue, "don't drive so damn fast then". But i don't think its fair for the buyers of the cayman to forego the performance that should be inherent to the car due to a risk of provoking a problem that porsche is quite aware of and is in a position to prevent.
I think it's a shame that this is the case. These are Porsches. They should not belch oil in tight turns. Over the top performance is why many of us chose to buy a Porsche. Just my opinion.
