Hummer more environmentally friendly than Prius?

**Cold Croc** · #1 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 07:05 PM

Think your Prius is good for the enviroment? Think again... interesting article from Central Connecticut State University:

The Recorder

**sapentia** · #2 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cold Croc

Think your Prius is good for the enviroment? Think again... interesting article from Central Connecticut State University:

The Recorder

Good article. We use the term Life Cycle Assessment in architecture and building construction but it is the same concept of taking all materials and their energy cost from birth to death in addition to the actual operating/maintenance/replacement costs of the vehicle, bldg., components etc. Along similar lines many people don't think we should use wood in some basic construction forms like residential because we need to save the forests and instead use metal studs. What they don't realize is that metal carries an energy costs multiples higher than wood. And for the CO2 happy (misled) people, using wood is beneficial because it "stores" CO2. Funny how we've been right in some things all along but have been led to think otherwise in recent years.

BMT · #3 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 07:51 PM

Very interesting facts about the nickel mining impact of the Prius' lithium battery. But I think comparing the 100k lifetime miles of Prius against 300K lifetime miles of a Hummer is a bit of a croc. True, they're comparing lifetime to lifetime, but I hardly believe Hummer's would be used through to the end of their 300K lifetime--just my opinion. More likely Hummers would be "retired" just past the 100k mark. I'd rather see their formula utilize statistical average of practical lifetime. Maybe that's what they're doing, but 300k just seems unlikely to me.

**Cold Croc** · #4 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BMT

Very interesting facts about the nickel mining impact of the Prius' lithium battery. But I think comparing the 100k lifetime miles of Prius against 300K lifetime miles of a Hummer is a bit of a croc. True, they're comparing lifetime to lifetime, but I hardly believe Hummer's would be used through to the end of their 300K lifetime--just my opinion. More likely Hummers would be "retired" just past the 100k mark. I'd rather see their formula utilize statistical average of practical lifetime. Maybe that's what they're doing, but 300k just seems unlikely to me.

Although the article didn't specifically state it, I think the 100,000 mi is the estimated lifetime of the batteries....afterwhich their ability to charge, recharge diminishes...

....Someone jump in here if I'm wrong.

Hummers use basic GM truck engines know for thier longevity. 300,000 mi should be reasonable ........if the rest of the vehicle doesn't fall apart in the mean time.

BMT · #5 (**permalink**) 06-03-2008, 11:23 PM

Hummers use basic GM truck engines know for thier longevity. 300,000 mi should be reasonable ........if the rest of the vehicle doesn't fall apart in the mean time.

[/quote]

I'm not doubting the lifetime estimates. With Prius batteries dying at 100k, that's near absolute. Most Prius drivers are probably of the mindset of driving the Prius to that end. But could the same be true for Hummers, that is, would they be driven to their functional 300k end. I'm just saying that it's more likely for a Prius to achieve 100k miles worth of use vs. a hummer getting 300k miles of use. My logic being that Prius tend to be bought for eco practicality, while Hummers tend to be bought for prestige (though in L.A. I suppose the same could be said for the Prius

).

gtscayman · #6 (**permalink**) 06-04-2008, 02:09 AM

All of the claims in the article have been debunked previously. There are other threads on this if you wish to search but in a nutshell:

1. Yes, the newer EPA tests are more realistic. But then to follow up with comparing an Aveo with a Prius is a seriously poor comparison. Interior size wise they are not in the same league - one's a subcompact and the other is a compact - and the Prius still gets better mileage, so he is comparing apples to oranges.

2. Yes, the INCO nickel smelter had significant environmental impact, most of it in the past. The damage referred to in that region is mostly as a result of the 1950's, 60's, 70's, etc. A comparison with past lead smelting practices would be a better comparison but doesn't sell papers too well.... Mercury was used in the making of hats in the 1800's but I don't see articles still referring to hats and mercury poisoning. And Toyota uses a small percentage of output and has a comprehensive recycling program.

3. Life cycle cost of a Prius vs a Hummer. Debunked right after that article and similar came out last year. The authors of the study themselves admitted that the Prius would rapidly have a lower life cycle cost than the Hummer as they amortized all the infrastructure used in the production of the Hummer back into the 1950's or so (ie. Chevy trucks). The Prius's present amortization period was maybe 10% of that.

Further, if one just sits back and thinks about the logic........

A 3000 lb car vs a 6000 pound truck. All things similar, the truck will have twice the environmental impact to produce vs the car. Way more rubber, steel, plastics, etc. Except that the Prius has a 53kg NiMH battery pack and and a large electric motor (copper and iron). But the Hummer will have much more lead battery. So the 53 kg of NiMH and the bit of copper/iron totally outweighs all the negatives of the 100% more of everything else the Hummer has? (and that would be about 3000 lbs of everything else, mind you, including more lead). Then the Prius goes on and uses 1/3 to 1/2 the fuel to operate and has a comprehensive battery recycling program (about 10% of lead acid car batteries end up in landfills, btw). So even if you replace the battery at 100,000 miles, the NiMH is going back into other batteries.

As for me, in a lead vs nickel challenge, I eat off of a SS fork and spoon everyday (ie. lots of nickel). Try that with lead utensils!